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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:07 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 1197
Location: Louisiana | Model 21 gurus, I need some help. I have a 20 ga. Skeet 21 with fancy wood. It has a 140xx serial number and I put it in a group photo on the 1933 Superposed thread, Browning Forum. That's a pretty interesting read if you haven't gone there. The 1933 Super was Major Charles Askins Sr.'s personal Browning Superposed (bottom gun). Anyway, I showed four guns, including this 21 and am currious about it. I think the number means pre-war, but the 21 numbers seem even more bizarre than the Browning pre-war Superposed numbers. I'm posting the picture of the four guns, followed by closer shots of the 21. I was under the impression that the wood was aftermarket, but now I'm not so sure. It could possibly be special order Winchester wood. Let me know what you think. Thanks, Dirtfarmer
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:28 am
Posts: 761
Location: SE Michigan | beautiful gun
run the numbers thru cody they should be able to tell you how it left the factory and if it ever was back for work
what is barrel lenght??
JD
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Post subject: Re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
Posts: 3832
Location: The Republic of Texas | Model 21 gurus, I need some help. I have a 20 ga. Skeet 21 with fancy wood. It has a 140xx serial number---- I think the number means pre-war, but the 21 numbers seem even more bizarre than the Browning pre-war Superposed numbers. I'm posting the picture of the four guns, followed by closer shots of the 21. I was under the impression that the wood was aftermarket, but now I'm not so sure. It could possibly be special order Winchester wood. Let me know what you think. It is a very nice 20 gauge Skeet Grade. The frame was made in 1938. The gun could have been built anytime after that. I have a 16 gauge Skeet grade in the 15XXX range. Frame made in 1939 and the gun was completed in April 1942. If factory, the wood will have the serial # stamped into the wood. Pull the forearm off and look, it would be in plain sight. I think the stock is stamped under the trigger guard iron.
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 1197
Location: Louisiana | Ole Cowboy,
Thanks for that info. The wood is stamped with the serial number. So, if it's factory wood, I guess it's the 'A' carving pattern. The grip cap looks like the Bakelite pre-50's version according to Schwing's book on the Model 21.
DF
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 1197
Location: Louisiana | The Blue Book states that by the end of 1933, the Skeet gun had been introduced with options including fancier wood, beavertail forearms, with a standard checkered butt on the Skeet model.
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 1197
Location: Louisiana | According to Schwing, all Skeet guns were offered with 26' barrels until 1947, when 28' barrels were first offered. This gun is 26'. I'm attaching a photo of Winchester 21-A checkering which is what I think we are seeing on this gun. The standard drop at the heel was 2 1/2', where as this gun is 2 1/4'. The standard checkering on the early guns was 20 lpi, and later 18 lpi. The custom and deluxe guns were usually 22 lpi. This gun is 24 lpi. Schwing states that there were lots of variations. This was piece work and the inspectors made sure the work was symmetrical, pleasing to the eye, and the borders crisp and clean.
DF
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:16 am
Posts: 10510 | That is a very nice older M21. Shoot it well!
_________________
CAUTION: Things may appear closer in the rear view mirror!
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8523
Location: Maryland | Yeah, Dirt, you should order a letter from the Cody Museum to attempt to document your wood carving. Your wood looks like better work than normal factory A carved, but it is hard to tell. In some periods, very good work came out of the factory. Some friends have some checkering jobs that John Durkin did after retirement, and they are very good work. My Dad's 20 gauge skeet, #14,527, was shipped in 1948. It was made in the 28' era. Both lengths were made in all eras but 28' skeets are rare in the prewar period. Your 26' gun could have been made on either side of the war. Stock dimensions were to order if requested, even in non custom shop guns.
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:40 pm
Posts: 2345
Location: Shingle Springs, CA | Hello Dirtfarmer: SWEEEEEET!
Cody: Phone (307) 578-4031
Email: cfmrecords@bbhc.org
IMO the wood grain and the fact that it's in the high XXX to low XXXX grade, looks correct for what would have been used for 'A' carved wood. The finish has the 'richness' that I would expect from a late 30/early 40s era gun. to me the fact that it has the 'checkered butt face' is the clincher. This is not a job most stock makers want to do.
Cody letters cost $60. for non-members. This gun deserves a letter, it will only enhance the value if in fact it turns out to be factory. It's money well spent, and will answer anybody's future questions!!
Lastly I couldn't tell you who the wood carvers would have been in the late 30s early 40s. If memory serves correctly Durkin was there from the late 50s into the mid 70s. It doesn't look like his work from what I can see.
Regards Dave
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 1197
Location: Louisiana | lowgun,
I read your comments about this gun on the 1933 Superposed thread. As you can see, the butt checkering is fine and not coarse. But, the wood is serial number stamped. I don't know if an aftermarket stock maker would go to the trouble of stamping the wood with the serial number, but I guess it could have been done that way.
DF
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 1197
Location: Louisiana | only winchesters,
Thanks for those comments and your assistance. I'm going to contact the Cody Museum for a letter. I'll post what I find.
This is a nice gun and in great shape. Like the 1933 Superposed, I picked it up because I liked the way it looked. Everything beyond that in just lagniappe.
DF
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Post subject: Re: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
Posts: 3832
Location: The Republic of Texas |
Cody letters cost $60. for non-members.
Dave, I just ordered, in the past 10 minutes, a letter for my M21, 16 gauge Skeet Grade and the cost was $75. Still money well spent.
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:40 pm
Posts: 2345
Location: Shingle Springs, CA | Thanks Ole Cowboy, was that $75. the 'non-member' price or member price?
Since not many shotguns letter, the last letter cost me $60 summer of 07 as a non-member.
IMO the letter will add much more value than it's cost to a Md 21. especially since it prooves if the gun is in the original configuration, and or any upgrades were factory.
Thanks again!
Regards Dave
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
Posts: 3832
Location: The Republic of Texas | | | Top |
Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:20 pm
Posts: 4480
Location: Pointe Coupee Parish, South La. | DF,
Born in La. but grew up on the edge of the Miss. delta. Would go to Sen. Jim Eastland's plantation to bird hunt. It was the old fashioned hunt on horseback with a mule drawn wagon for the dogs and setting up lunch in the field. The only shotgun I had at the time was a Sweet Sixteen w/Mod bbl. The Sen would insist that I use a Mod 21 (20ga.) of his that was choked Skt 1&2. It was death and destruction on quail. Boy, you sure brought back some memories for me with those pictures. Beautiful gun.
Chris
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 1197
Location: Louisiana | fase3,
I can just picture those hunts. You are truly a blessed man to have experienced that. Those were the days when wild birds were plentiful in the south. It was a different era.
Thanks for that post.
DF
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:16 pm
Posts: 1197
Location: Louisiana | Ole Cowboy,
There is a beautiful pre-war Model 21, 16 ga. Skeet with factory letter at www.collectorsfirearms.com under 'new arrivals' for 3-7-08. It's in perfect condition. They're asking $7950, which sounds a bit pricey to me, but I don't know the market for these guns. I've dealt with these folks on numerous occasions and they will work a deal, even take trades.
DF
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:40 pm
Posts: 2345
Location: Shingle Springs, CA | Hello Dirtfarmer: that 16ga. being a Skeet gun with WS-1 and @ barrels with single selective trigger, beavertail forarm, 'checkered butt face', considering it started out in 1941 finished early 42 time frame. Stamped 'SKEET' on the floor plate! That's a nice gun.
Lets face it with approx. 36,000 Md 21s made period, finding a nice looking one of this vintage isn't easy, plus being a 16ga. Skeet with factory letter.I don't feel it's 'over priced'!
Go look at Tony's Md 21s, www.connecticutshtgun.com and see his prices on 16ga guns, (if he has any). It's not a 'steal' but a fair price none the less!
Regards Dave
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Post subject: re: Winchester model 21, 20 ga. Skeet |
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
Posts: 3832
Location: The Republic of Texas | My Model 21, 16 ga, Skeet Grade is the same as it one in the add, except it has a straight grip. The serial is also in the 15XXX range(a few numbers earlier, in fact) but it finished inspection in April 1942 according to an old letter. I should have my new Cody letter soon.
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